Transcription: Web Axe Episode 78 (Web Accessibility News)

[Introduction, woman's voice over music] Welcome to Web Axe, practical web accessibility tips. Web Axe dot blogspot dot com. Web Axe. Web site accessibility. Web standards. Web Axe dot blogspot dot com.

Dennis: Welcome to Web Axe podcast number 78, Accessibility news and just a whole um, range of topics today. This is your host Dennis.

Ross: And this is the co-host Ross.

Dennis: Hello Ross.

Ross: Hey, Dennis how's it going?

Dennis: Good! Happy new years, we, uh didn't have you for the January episode because that was an interview, but glad to have you back now.

Ross: Yup, thank you, thank you. It's 2010, very exiting, I am sure there will be a lot of accessibility progress this year.

Dennis: Oh there is all kinds of stuff going on. And ah, well you started your year right. You had a little vacation.

Ross: Yeah went down to Utah for some snowboarding which is great, you know its like stuck up here in Michigan where its like freezing cold and not sunny and very dreary. 

Dennis: Mmm.

Ross: If you are going to do any sort of recreational snowboarding, there maybe a hill or two. And Utah was sunny and warm. They actually have really nice snow, so.

Dennis: Nice.

Ross: It was quite nice. How's winter treating you?

Dennis:  Pretty good, its been real raining here in the bay area, but um, it's been a little better lately. We uh, last weekend we actually on the beach for a while in Santa Cruz.

Ross: Oh Really?

Dennis: Yeah! It was you know like 60-ish and uh somewhat sunny that day, and yeah it was a good time.

Dennis: Lets Catch up on a few things. Um, the .net awards, we were nominated, thank you very much 

Ross: Yup.

Dennis: .net magazine right?

Ross: Yup yup, in a couple places. Um, best web design podcast of the year and then um.. the blunder awards or uh

Dennis: Oh yeah!

Ross: For that picture you found of the ridiculous captcha.

Dennis: Yeah!, I wrote a brief blog post like the middle of last year about captcha and how terrible it is with an example of an image, example of a terrible captcha that you know no human could ever read.

Ross: Right Right. (chuckles)

Dennis: So I was nominated for that, um what did they call it?

Ross: Oh, I think it was called the blunder award.

Dennis: Ok. Yeah so (cut off)

Ross: Web Blunders or something.

Dennis: (chuckles) We were nominated but we didn't win anything right?

Ross: No, no Boagworld won um ... the best web design podcast and they do a great one of course, but you know it's a little fishy because uhh one of the Judges just happens to be paul boag.

Dennis: Oh Really!?

Ross: Yeah so.

Dennis: Thats kind of a conflict of interests.

Ross: Right Right, and granted they say its a bit part of it is the voting but you know I that was one of the rules like the judges can't win.

Dennis: Yeah...

Ross: I think you should of just like handed it down to us.

Dennis: (chuckles) Yeah, ha ha.

Ross: Or something gracefully.

Dennis: (breaths while chuckling) 

Ross: I'm sorry can't... 

Dennis: Maybe next year.

Ross: Right.

Dennis: (continues to laugh) Uh alright well I'm just glad to be nominated.

Ross: Right, right.

Dennis: That was nice. And um yeah and our readership and listener base is still slowly growing so thanks to all of our fans out there.

Ross: Yeah. And don't be afraid to tell your friends, that they should also stay up on accessibility and start reading the blog and listening to us. We'll be forever grateful.

Dennis: (chuckles) Yeah that's one of the things about web accessibility is, you know there is a lot of cross over with web standards and usability. So if, even you know you're big on those topics then um you know this podcast is beneficial.

Ross: Right, right. And also you know web accessibility is going to only grow by people being passionate about it. Its so easy to make inaccessible websites, unless you're aware, unless you help build awareness.

Dennis: Yes, that is for sure. I found that out yesterday when I was analysing a few sites. 

(both chuckle)

Dennis: But anyways uh okay! Lets move on too uh list of announcements.

Ross: So you did some updates to the Web Axe site.

Dennis: Yes the um Web Axe is still hosted by Blogger, which every probably knows it was purchase by Google a while back. But I still like the service, its pretty good um. Some stuff isn't the greatest but um like one thing um like one adjustment I made was I moved that top blogger bar because that was just kind of messy and the code wasn't very good or its not too accessible. But that had, the most important, definitely the most important part about that bar was just the search feature so I added a custom search box on the right on the top of the right column of the site, that uses the Google search.

Ross: Oh, very nice.

Dennis: Yeah, and did a couple of other cleanups umm but another major thing I added was um the Twitter feed also in the right column so you can view the like last 5 Web Axe tweets. And yeah so.

Ross: Very nice you know kind of be able to look the last while your reading up on a blog post or two.

Dennis: Yeah yeah, So yeah lots of little improvements and the site is continuing to improve.

Ross: Good work!

Dennis: Thank you sir.

Ross: And everyone should check it out, and subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already, or the rss feed.

Dennis: Mhm.

Ross: And then the next really cool thing is so you were interviewed on the BBC.

Dennis: Yes, me, myself.

Ross: You.

Dennis: and me 

Ross: Yeah.

Dennis: and Web Axe, yes! That was was uh in the BBC podcast and his names the you know and there was a link to Web Axe right on the BBC um show notes I guess you call it.

Ross: Right.

Dennis: So yeah, it was a show entitled "Haiti, EIL and Accessibility". And they had um me and another gentlemen ummm speak about accessibility and um and the lady that runs the show just, um she really liked the idea of of our podcast and everything so just came on talked about it a little bit. Um, lets see the other person was um, Artur Ortega from Yahoo.

Ross: Oh okay.

Dennis: He's  um, you might recognize his name, he is yeah I seen him on like, hes on, I think hes on Twitter and stuff. He is uh, he is pretty well know for accessibility evangelist at Yahoo. So um, yeah I talked to her for maybe about 15 minutes and I thought it went pretty well, I was kinda disappointed though. It was edited down quite a bit so.

Ross: Oh..

Dennis: The actual piece that was just published was just uh, was a couple of minutes long.

Ross: But still seems nice to get the awareness. I mean the BBC is a huge...

Dennis: Yeah definitely.

Ross: a huge following. So how did they come across Web Axe, did they just um do any searches or just she say she was a listener?

Dennis: I forget exactly.

Ross: Oh.

Dennis: But you know its not too difficult to come across if your researching web accessibility that's for sure.

Ross: Right right, that's a good point.

Dennis: Um yeah so it was very cool.

Ross: Alright well hopefully this will lead to more media mentions, maybe we cant even get on Wallstreet journal next.

Dennis: yeah and um yeah her name is Jamillah Knowles and she um does this pods and blogs, um section on the BBC web site. Pods like I'm not sure what that means but um...

Ross: Heh heh.

Dennis: Yeah pretty cool check it out. Okay, transcription. (Laughs) We are currently taking volunteers to help transcribe the Web Axe podcast. 

Ross: Right, cause very import success of accessibility, also very hard to do and time consuming, so... Please help.

Dennis: So we had a couple takers lately. So that was excellent um, Katherine Lynch or Kate, I believe she goes by, um, she transcribed podcast number 76 web accessibility disasters, from last fall. And that is up so thank you very much. And also Jennison Asuncion, um he just did finished transcribing podcast 74, um awards events and back to basics. I think that was from like the end of September. And I'm currently doing number 75, I'm kinda stuck in the middle so, hopefully I can get that finished up in the next couple of weeks.

Ross: Yeah, and hopefully more people volunteer.

Dennis: Yeah so if you have any extra time, we greatly appreciate it and you know of course give you big mention thank you on this site and Twitter and podcast. 

Ross: Yeah so you can practically be famous.

Dennis: Exactly thousands of people literally will see your name.

Ross: Right right, they will all cheer too. Yeah.

Dennis: (laughs) Yeah where are my effects?

(both laugh)

Dennis: Is that what you were thinking?

Ross: Yeah! Don't you have your clapping effect?

Dennis: Uh, I can never find ... Uh, I gotta find that somewhere.

Ross: Oh Okay, well next time we'll cheer for everybody, so you wanna be cheered for, you wanna hear your name, and then hear people clapping, please.

Dennis: (laughs), So what's this WordPress plugin?

Ross: Yeah so I've been working on some WordPress plugins, Um. I use WordPress quite frequently for all my blogs, but also in a lot of situations it just works real well as a content management system? Have you ever used it as a CMS?

Dennis: Yes, I have!

Ross: Yeah you know it does a good job, its open source, its easy to make accessible, pretty easy to use but, you know a major complaint for it, especially in terms of the CMS is, its definitely designed for writing blog posts. Which makes since because its a blogging software. Um, but I kind of got to the point where I had enough client phone calls trying to figure out how to do something that was pretty easy to do once you know how to do it but wasn't obvious. So I just wrote a couple of quick plugins to make WordPress as a content management system a little easier. Um, for example I added a nice dashboard to, uh a nice panel to the dashboard that lets you do commonly done things like add pages or edit pages or new post and edit post were really big icons or add a list of all the pages you could edit to the dashboard, stuff like that just to make it using it as a CMS a little easier.

Dennis: Cool!

Ross: Yeah, if you use WordPress as a CMS you should checkout them out and also give me high ratings on

Dennis: Yeah make sure the, those uh links in the show notes here.

Ross: Ah, good point, will do.

Dennis: Yeah definitely check that out. I know myself and sure many other people that you know use WordPress, use it just as much as a CMS, you know, as the blogging part.

Ross: Right.

Dennis: Cause of a lot of websites, you know they-they, its a website but, it has like, you know a blog-like section to it. Um, but actually the last site that I did for a client was the first one I did in WordPress that was completely, um cms-like website. It wasn't like, it had no blog what so ever.

Ross: oh okay, yeah I've done a few that way.

Dennis: So I could have used you plugin! (laughs)

Ross: yeah you potentially still could!

Dennis: And! During that project I um, I started my own little WordPress project, an actual, an accessible theme ... I haven't finished it yet. But I am sure I will let everyone know when I'm done!

Ross: (laughs) And it's much needed actually you know, its one of that things where

Dennis: Totally

Ross: where, there have been plenty of time I've searched to see if could find an accessible theme to start with and then customize from there and just no body has done it. 

Dennis: And there's been conversations in, lately too! on Twitter you know like "Where's the accessible WordPress themes?", its like there are none, its really weird.

Ross: Yeah.

Dennis: So I'm making one, i mean the basics of it are done, I just want to, kind of polish it.

Ross: Right.

Dennis: So, um yeah.

Ross: So stay tuned you could have all sorts of goodies coming from Web Axe.

Dennis: Exactly!

(both chuckle)

Dennis: Um, ok I just want to mention this blog post from um uh Web Axe. Uh from the begging of the year, web accessibility conferences in 2010. So um, it's a pretty good list of uh, exactly that! Web accessibility conferences in this year (laughs) And um, I got some good input I've added a couple that were suggested. And um, I do maintain this list somewhat, so um, I have updated a couple dates and uh and locations that were missing in the beginning of the year. Um so, if you haven't seen that, check it out. Make it to a conference, there lots of conferences going on. Um, in addition to this list, you know there is always meetups, and unconferences and things like that. So um.

Ross: Right! Are you planning on going to any of them?

Dennis: Yes!, um, lets see. Well I missed the Cal-Wac, that was just, um like last week I think? California Web Accessibility Conference in Santa Clara, from Knobility, by Knobility, um I'll be going to CSUN towards the end of next month. And um, lets see, not sure what else, probably Accessing Higher Ground in the fall in Colorado again. What about you? Are you hitting any conferences this year?

Ross: Ah you know every year I say I'm going to get to south by southwest. But I don't know.

Dennis: (Laughs) I know we said that last year, we said like "We're going! for sure".

Ross: Right, right, but um, Im looking at uh the Penn State web two ten conference.

Dennis: Oh yeah!

Ross: Should be kinda cool.

Dennis: Yeah that's someone I just updated actually, I-they um added dates recently.

Ross: Right, right so, Mr. Jeff Zeldmen will be speaking there and hopefully I can run into him, and convince him to giving him an interview on this show.

Dennis: Yeah I've seen him speak once or twice, he definitely worth going to.

Ross: Yeah I've seen videos.

Dennis: Yeah.

Ross: And then the Higher Ed web is also fairly close. So that might be a cool one to get too.

Dennis:  Yeah, that's cool! Um.. oh yeah the one that I submitted for duh! It's called the annual accessibility technology conference its in Indianapolis, so we'll see if they accept my proposal.

Ross: Well they damn well should.

Dennis: Yeah, and I might need some assistance getting there too so we'll see what happens.

Ross: I bet they also pay for your ticket then.

Dennis: Yeah that's what I am hoping! I've never been to - I've never been there, to Indianapolis.

Ross:  OH yeah me either, I hear its cool though, I'm sure its a fun place to visit.

Dennis: In the spring and summer I'm sure its real nice. I'm not sure about the winter.

(both laugh)

Ross: Good point.

Dennis: All right.

Ross: Yeah so there are lots of uh conferences going on. A lot of them related to accessibility and you know they're just a great place to meet colleagues and get business and raise awareness of yourself and how much you know.

Dennis: Yeah you know don't be afraid to submit a proposal either. If you are an expert in something uh go for it!

Ross: Right and I always forget to do that, like "Why doesn't anyone ask me to speak?"

Dennis: Yeah, you should start - you should start speaking!

Ross: Right.

Dennis: You're already teaching, your already professor Ross!

Ross:  Right, right.

Dennis: What do you classmates call you? Or not classmates, your students, what do they

Ross: Um, I just have then call me Ross, you know Mr. Johnson sounds a little to formal.

Dennis: (laughs) Yeah.

Ross: I don't quite fell like Professor Ross quite yet. So..

Dennis: (laughs) That's funny. Okay lets me onto some news! So yeah Fangs! There a new release of Fangs, uh for FireFox 3.6. written and updated by Peter Krantz, uh, from standards schmandards.

Ross: And this is one of those great easy to use plug-ins that emulate a screen reader through FireFox so you can kind of get an idea of how your uh page works in terms of a screen reader.

Dennis: Exactly, it's an excellent plug-in, um, and its been moved to the Mozilla website, its hosted by Mozilla now so um. I guess you could give it a good rating there.

Ross: Right, that means like more official I guess?

Dennis: Yeah, yeah.

Ross: Or approved by Mozilla.

Dennis: But I am glad to see he is still updating it. I really like that add-on, and I got FireFox three six and  it didn't work and I said shoot! But now it works so cool.

Ross: Yeah, and it just makes it so easy, i mean anybody can easily download it and install it and be aware how their site reads from a screen reader perspective, even if its not an official like what a blink user or low-vision user might use.

Dennis: Yeah it seems to emulate a screen reader pretty well.

Ross: Yeah i agree.

Dennis: So try it out!

Ross: Absolutely.

Dennis: Okay so I motioned um, Jennison earlier and um, he's becoming (laughs) he's all over the web. He's all about web accessibility um and uh I'm getting to know him pretty well and just you know through Twitter mostly, but a couple other avenues and uh I think he is in Toronto. So besides being a great piece of the community and uh providing us with a transcription he has, now um taken on a couple Twitter accounts that are really helpful. One of them is web accessibility events. so the hand is a-1-1-y-events.

Ross: What's the significance of a11y?

Dennis: You know that's the hash tag for accessibility.

Ross: Oh! oh right okay.

Dennis: The short version of accessibility is "a", then "11" for eleven letters and then a "y".

(both laugh)

Dennis: Somebody actually come out with a blog article recently explaining all that and the history of it and everything. Anyways uh yeah, so he lists um, he has a Twitter stream of web accessibility events that he announces and comments on and stuff and so. Uh if you cant make it to a conference you might want to follow that. And um hit kind of event, you know, small events, big events. Or just follow it to uh see whats going on. And the other one that he's doing is jobs, a-1-1-y-jobs. So this uh where he posts open positions related web accessibility. So two great ideas and uh from Jennison, just wanted to say thank you. Oh another thing on Twitter that he's doing is a hash he suggest, um for the topic of touch screen accessibility so if your speaking on that on Twitter, then lets use the hash tag "t-s-access", so pound, "t", "s", for touch screen "access".

Ross: Yeah and it seems like since the release of the Ipad, all of a sudden touch screen discussion has kind of really been active lately.

Dennis: Yeah.

Ross: I don't know if Apple just did something, so people have to talk about it but you know touch screen have been around for a while.

Dennis: Yeah and you know, its just going to be um, I think going to be a growing topic, you know.

Ross: Yeah, yeah kind of, any time there's new technology that's being adapted you have to think of all the areas, including accessibility. What sort of accessibility implications are there and how do you solve them.

Dennis:  And speaking of the iPad um Web Axe uh did put out a little post on it just summing up some of the accessibility features of it. Um, and its pretty similar to the iPhone. Accessibility features, which is  good. Voice over and screen zoom and things like that. But there are more features um in iPad which make it even more accessible. But just come inherent things about it, just the large size of it self. You know, if you have some sort of visual impairment, the um , the large size of it you know can give you large text. Um, but yeah you can hook in an external keyboard to it and it has a real simple interface for those with, will help with cognitive impairments. So yeah what do you think of the iPad?

Ross: Uh i really like what it is, for what it is. Like I don't know if would ever necessarily purchase one at least where it stands right now. But I can see a lot of situations you know like my grandfather who still gets one online but doesn't need as whole computer but still would like to do web pages and email.

Dennis: Mhm.

Ross: I feel like the ipad would be like the easier for him just because it simple and it touch screen and that sort of intuitive iPhone sort of approach, but bigger. But he doesn't need s a whole operating system.

Dennis: Right, maybe my mom should get one.

Ross: Right right.

Dennis: She has a netbook. And I think you know, an iPad is in between uh a mobile a smart phone and a netbook. 

Ross: Right.

Dennis: Yeah.

Ross: Or even like a netbook and a laptop. Like you don't even need a whole laptop but you want something a little more in terms of size and that sort of...

Dennis: They're definitely pretty cool.

Ross: Yeah I think it's a good idea. 

Dennis: Yea, if I had the money I'd buy one sure. (laughs) But I don't have any extra $700 to throw around right now, so.

Ross: (chuckles) Who does!

Dennis: Yea.

Ross: So then you had a uh, we've got you recording a transcript for a webinar?

Dennis: Oh yea! (chuckles) I forgot about that! We almost skipped this, thank you.

Ross: It's very important though.

Dennis: Yea, I presented a webinar, um, a couple weeks ago. On uh, the EASI web site. Equal access to software and information. It's a webinar series, four weeks, with different topics on social media. So, the first week was about Second Life, and the second week I did, about Twitter and its accessibility issues. And of course. So that went pretty well. I'll put a link in the show notes and um, you can view the slides, there's a transcription, or you could replay the whole webinar which is pretty neat.

Ross: Yea, absolutely. So Second Life, people still play that? It seems like it's slowly dying.

Dennis: Yea I thought that was kind of a strange topic, but, apparently they do.

(both chuckle)

Dennis: Yea, I think last week was Facebook, and I'm not sure...

Ross: Ah, nobody uses Facebook.

Dennis: Yea. I don't see the notes for Facebook yet, but I'll probably at least tweet that when it gets published. That sounds like it would be pretty good to check out.

Ross: Yea, that should be a good one. And that's another reason to follow Web Axe on Twitter, because you'll get all sorts of great tweets.

Dennis: It is a good um, Twitter account to follow, if I don't say so myself. And its growing in subscribers too so it's cool. It's all good.

Ross: All right, must be doing something right.

Dennis: Yeah. Okay, lets move on to a few articles.

Ross: Yeah so there's been some interesting articles out there since out last show. The first one that caught my eye was a post on webaim, they kind of revisited and the accessibility of it. And of course Target had the huge lawsuits, its was suppose to be this big sort of movement for the websites and then it turns out they were only fined, what 6 million dollars?

Dennis: Yeah 6 million dollar which seems like a lot, but it's just a drop in the bucket for Target.

Ross: Right, yeah compared to how much they spend and make.

Dennis: I guess they give away every year, way more money than that I guess.

Ross: yeah

Dennis: From what I understand. You know to make themselves to look like they are a compassionate corporation. Yet they fought this web accessibility law for several years. Who know how much they spent in lawyers fees right?

Ross: Right right, way more then that and yeah. But it sounds like they've done a pretty good job of redoing their site. You know it s nice and clean, good use of skip links and you know tabbing though the pages works very well. So probably not perfect but you know definitely making some good steps to making it accessible.

Dennis: Yeah it's definitely good progress um, overall I think it's a win for web accessibility um. You know I went through this site a little bit, there's definitely room for improvement. I mean its much better than before but you know I would have never put my name on it. (laughs) I would have never signed off on the code, we'll put it that way. But I'm a pretty big stickler when it comes to that of kind stuff.

Ross: Progress is good you know.

Dennis: Yeah.

Ross: Although it'll be hard to get much worst then what they had before.

Dennis: (laughs) Yeah, and um like Jared Smith points out in the webaim blog about it, that um and there's a link to the uh NFB considered it um, you know considered it accessible and gave it their approval so. And they are the ones that started the lawsuit right? So if they are satisfied then that's good.

Ross: Yeah yeah that means a lot they felt like they did a good enough job that their users could actually use the site and were happy. But you know that doesn't mean that they shouldn't stride even more.

Dennis: Exactly, exactly.

Ross: We have a post from 456 Berea Street which i feel like we haven't uh, mentioned any articles from here in a while. Used to be like every podcast!

(both laugh)

Dennis: Yeah, um i know he took a hiatus I think for a little while. Roger Johanson. But yeah there's a blog post he come out with and I've seen a few now about this um, and for good reason. It's about the display of alt text, in browsers and the consistent display of alternative text. 

Ross: And as we all know the alt text is the most important in web accessibility is extremely important so. It's kind of a important topic in general. You know a lot of browser kind of just choose to display alt text differently including Chrome and Safari. Uh i guess they have some sort of trouble with title and alt attributes. If um, not showing them in certain situations. Which i didn't even realize.

Dennis: Um, (laughs), Well it says that um, displays the content of the title attribute but if the image has no alt attribute.... blah blah blah. Oh okay, displays the title text as error recovery in the case of missing alt text.

Ross: Right so if there is no alt text, and the image isn't missing then it will just display the title attribute. 

Dennis: Mmm.

Ross: But not all browsers do it that way and...

Dennis: Yeah some browser will display the filename which is worst.

Ross: Right. And in FireFox it displays as nothing. Which is strange..

Dennis: Yeah and then like in IE of course it will give the alt attribute, kind of renders as a tool tip.

Ross: Right. They all kind of do slightly different things. Yeah, would be nice to be constant.

Dennis: Definitely! That would be easier for the user as well as the developer. 

Ross: Right right and there are plenty of situations were people might be browsing with images turned off or you know image aren't and loading and yeah you don't want to worry about which browser you in to make sure that you able to get all the content on the page. 

Dennis: Exactly.

Ross: He even suggest there should be a spec recommend behavior on HTML5 so that the browser manufacture can kind of build that into their code. 

Dennis: Totally agree.

Ross: Absolutely.

Dennis: I think, the alt attribute will be in HTML5, because I know earlier they were talking about removing it.

Ross: Well removing the requirement right?

Dennis: Oh yeah making it like you know um, optional or something.

Ross: Right right.

Dennis: But anyways um yeah that's another discussion for another day.

Ross: Maybe another podcast.

Dennis: You know we should do HTML5 some time.

Ross: Yeah, Sounds good. I remember we had Jeramey Kieth talk about it, but we should have our own opinions.

Dennis: I am just trying to think of a, I'm thinking of a kind of cool people maybe you know we can invite as a guest a guest to that. Maybe that will be cool.

Ross: We can do like a round table.

Dennis:  Yeah

Ross: Or a square table or cricket table.

Dennis: Yeah if you have any uh, you know input on that please leave a comment on the blog.

Ross: Yup. and then last an article I came across a uh, list post you these seems to be so popular. You know these are getting so popular where its 10 somethings or others. That are awesome for something. But this one in particular is 10 tools for evaluating web design accessibility. You know I feel like usually when there are these kinds of lists, especially with accessibility, they are kind of cheesy and not all that well researched. But, these are some um pretty good tools that I had not come across.

Dennis: Yeah I am looking at it now and your right. There's some uh some tools that I don't think I have never seen.

Ross: Yeah I mean they got kind of a nice accessibility color well, um so you can you know select your colors with enough contrast. And that sort of thing and analysing contrast and...

Dennis: They have that -

Ross: different um, color blindness situations. So its pretty nice. Switch to gray scale some people do have complete color blindness. 

Dennis: Yeah I have seen a couple of these. The WAT, the web accessibility tool bar for Internet Explorer. Which is also available for Opera now. Um, that's a pretty good one. The color contrast analyser by Juicy Studio.

Ross: And have you heard of the A Designer plug-in before, or uh, tool?

Dennis: A-Designer....

Ross: It was actually designer by IBM, this is one of the things that I hadn't seem before. But they have like a visualization mode where you can visualize uh basically turn a website visuals to like a blind mode, and then like a low vision mode too. 

Dennis: I don't think I've seen that one.

Ross: Yeah. so that's kinda of cool. You know its one think to use a screen reader and kind of get a sense of how it works in an auditory sense but to just uh, just to have lower vision to where maybe you are browsing visually. But it just more difficult. So I thought hat was a really cool project.

Dennis: Yeah that's some uh good stuff.

Ross: Absolutely!

Dennis: From six revisions, which is a great site and in itself.

Ross: Yeah it has pretty good content there so I'm glad to see that they can focus on accessibility, so get people interested and there looks like there are quite a few comments so.

Dennis: Yeah.

Ross: Very nice.

Dennis: Okay so that wraps it up for podcast number 78. And um, we'll catch you next time. Thanks for listening.

Ross: Thank for tuning in.